When you open Wesley Yang’s “Paper Tigers” in New York Magazine, you will notice a half naked East Asian man starring blankly right back at you as its greeting. Playfully, you may think that the title evoke images of tigers made out of paper until you read the tagline,
What happens to all the Asian-American overachievers when the test-taking ends?
You then scroll down to check how long the article is and you realize that it’s eleven whopping pages with the first page exploding with emotional outbursts from one who is clearly going through an Asian American identity crisis. If you haven’t noticed already, this is creating a stir within the APA community as some are declaring that he is an embarrassment to his race and others say that he speaks the raw, brutal truth.
Honestly, I love it when my Asian Pacific American community gets in a passionate uproar over matters like these. You then have blogging folks mass tweeting, Facebooking, and writing articles all over the Internet, and I relish the vast array of opinions being shared by Asians and non-Asians alike. The last time such a commotion happened was with Tiger Mom Amy Chua when she made a declaration that Asian parents are superior (which it may or may not be the entire truth, according to the author himself.)
I will step out and say that I appreciate the fact that Wesley Yang expressed himself frankly about his thoughts on his identity and the Asian/Asian American community. I agree with his mindset of not thinking like an immigrant. I, too, have been frustrated with a lot of East Asian values that I once found to be restricting and confining. I agree with his reports that Asian Americans are often stuck in the glass ceiling (or the Bamboo ceiling as he calls it here), to which our very own John Lin has specifically covered in an excellent article nearly three years prior.
Overall, this article is extremely problematic: First of all, Asian American does not equal banana or Twinkie. To say that the both are one and the same is ridiculous considering that Yang has a very pessimistic and outdated mindset in what he thinks an “American” is. Also, how do you write about the invisibility of Asian Americans when you don’t even associate with them? It speaks loud that Yang is full self-hatred but it’s confusing to really determine where he stands when his stance alternates randomly from bashing Asians to saying that they aren’t getting enough respect. As the article goes on, he boasts about the appeal of Western masculinity and that white women are not really just normal human beings like everybody else, but destinations to be traveled upon (thanks to N’jaila Rhee for providing that concise insight). Given that this article is published in a mainstream publication, there is a great danger that his voice will be considered as the “definitive” authority on the Asian American mindset.
I do appreciate that Yang spoke frankly about this and it is clear that this is an emotionally driven article, for which I could relate with on many points. But if there’s several things I want to say to Yang back (if he even bothers to read this), it would go like this:
Your face is not alien and it certainly does yourself a disservice by comparing yourself to a reptile. For that matter, stop seeing your racial identity and culture as a bane to your existence because really, no culture or race is perfect. While I think it is unfortunate that you see Western values and masculinity as something superior to your Asian counterparts, you are a product of your upbringing so I see where you are coming from. Even so, it has made you biased against the racial heritage you are from and it is therefore incredibly important that you should not forget who you are. It doesn’t mean you have to take pride in it or even love it fully, but it does mean you need to acknowledge who you are and embrace yourself completely.
Trust me, I’ve been down that road before and can understand the rage in being torn and confused between two different cultures. I noticed you keep using “Asian-American” to speak of yourself and of others; how about taking that dash out and realize that these two can go together? You may balk that these two will always be foreign to each other but like you said at the end of the article, you tell others to “dare to be something different,” and to make something of themselves. I ask you to apply your own words to yourself and connect the bridges that you see to be so far apart.
Despite whatever problems I may see with this article, it is for the best that we have voices like these telling it like it is. They may be right or they may be wrong, but honesty is a crucial force that needs to be welcomed in even if nobody wants to hear it. For the 8Asians readers out there, I strongly recommend you to take the effort to read the whole thing. If it manages to push your buttons or make you feel emotional in any way, then the article is for you. Stick with it and by the end, if you still vehemently disagree, you have your own unique voice to share it with the world. Use it.
h/t: Merlin C
“Let me summarize my feelings toward Asian values: Fuck filial piety. Fuck grade-grubbing. Fuck Ivy League mania. Fuck deference to authority. Fuck humility and hard work. Fuck harmonious relations. Fuck sacrificing for the future. Fuck earnest, striving middle-class servility.”
Guess someone had a bad Christmas.
@ErnieHsiung Omg
I read it and I agree with you — there were parts I strongly identified with, and parts I hated. Particularly the bit about that pick-up artist guy — what a sexist douchebag. Ugh.
“there is a great danger that his voice will be considered as the “definitive” authority on the Asian American mindset.”
That is primarily what worried me. If he had stuck to his own lamentations about being Asian-Am, I would not have minded as much, but instead, he ignores a lot of other Asian-Am voices (like AA women, 2+ generation Asian-Ams, etc) and presents his experience as being universal among us.
Good response, Edward. Wesley is extremely conflicted, and it shows in how incoherent his long rant/article is, jumping from topic to topic. Not only does he not speak for all Asian Americans, but he especially doesn’t speak for older AAs who have had a different experience of these United States than he has had. And ya know? Maybe some of the perspectives and emotions he describes having are natural outcomes of his personality and not his cultural background at all.
As I (my stage/pen name being “Asian Playboy”) and my company (the ABCs of Attraction) are part of the article (starts at the bottom of page 6), I thought I’d jump in about the comments (both here and out in the ethersphere) made about my portion of the story .
I’m fully aware that my particular course is fraught with both is stereotypes and judgements, but it is ultimately a service much needed in the AA community whether you agree with it or not. But just like I can’t be held responsible for whatever preconceptions and stereotypes a white person has of Asians, I am not going to be beholden to the prejudices that people have against the so-called Pick Up Artists and the industry therein.
My first client was a Chinese Canadian mother who hired me to fly out to Toronto to help out her son who had been harrassed by neo-Nazis in high school. I never set out to make this a profession, but that first client helped set the tone and mission statement of both me and my company. But people still assume that what I do has to do with they saw on TV or read in a book about negging and peacocking, etc. which has nothing to do with what I teach or do at my company.
I see pick up as instituting the kind of social change that I don’t see both in real life or in the media. Creating Asian male sex symbols and role models from the ground up, almost like a gross roots movement, instead of waiting around for the media to figure out AMs rock.
In reality, I’m selling the sizzle before the steak. “Hey, you! We’ll get you laid! Yeah, you!” And when they take the bootcamp. Boom. We just “tricked” them into becoming more confident and better adjusted men, more able to handle the challenges both in terms of dealing with racism and prejudice in both the workplace and dating arena.
People can call that addressing the problem or exploiting it, but that’s like identifying a trend amongst, for example, AF teens who have higher than normal rates of suicide, forming a mental health outreach program, and then lambasting them for it. AAs have an almost 40% out-marriage rate by Asian females, but only a 20% out-marriage rate by AMs, leaving 20% who will not be getting married to either Asians or non-Asians. This is a problem and doesn’t even address the eventual 24million gender imbalance projected to occur in 2020 because of China’s one child policy.
And it is no small coincidence that 20% to 33% of the dating advice and pick up industry’s revenue is derived from Asian American men. The question is, do you want that large portion of young Asian men to be taught the rites of courtship, pickup, manhood (or whatever term you want to bandy about) by White owned companies teaching Asian men how to act like White Males and being ashamed of Asian culture (which is the advertising trend amongst white-owned PUA businesses to mock Asian culture), or from the minority owned businesses that have had to work our way up both in the white-centric industry who accept, embrace and even use our Asianness to our advantage?
It’s one thing to disagree with the PUA industry, but to try to educate yourself on what it is that we (and most specifically I) do and how we’ve helped literally thousands of Asian men around the world get the girl, whether it’s ranging from dates, a one night stand, serious girlfriends and even marriages by clients.
JT Tran
http://www.abcsofattraction.com
I couldn’t resist after all and have weighed in at my blog “what a cup of tea” on Wesley Yang’s “Paper Tiger” New York Magazine article. You can find it at http://bit.ly/mDbxmf.
Ultimately he has a very strong and valid point. Perhaps he doesn’t speak for all Asian-Americans but he does speak for a large segment, whether those individuals realize it or would like to admit it or not. I thought Wesley’s article was well written and his angry, almost fanatical tone was deliberate and appropriate. Self-hate? Possibly but it certainly goes deeper than that. His story is a re-telling of many of our own experiences; strict immigrant parents, told to speak English to “assimilate” faster, expected to get, not good but excellent grades, remain stoic in the face of adversity, stay behind the scenes, go to a good school and find a job in a respected profession, never make waves.
Asians that become aware of the “bamboo-ceiling”, that was established by the white establishment, have two choices, A. take the typical Asian route and earn good money, but stay in the background, a valuable part of the team but never standing out or B. integrate the White American aggressive attitude and break through the ceiling by striving for and demanding leadership positions or taking a risk and becoming an entrepreneur etc. Where his story diverges from the typical Asian-American tale is that during this proverbial fork in the road for Wesley, he chose neither. Remember he doesn’t really see himself as Asian but America doesn’t see him as American.
I found it fascinating how he came to his conclusions from his interviews and (let’s not forget) his research. I see his points as follows. Due to classic Asian upbringing Asians have dominated nearly every statistical measure of success in North America, grades, credentials, academic awards, earning potential, average salaries, hell even crime statistics. But we are still collectively looked at as foreign, untrustworthy (in the larger sense), not really American (or Canadian in my case), insignificant. Is there any wonder why Asians try so hard to assimilate? Wesley grew up white, with the exception of his parents so (for right or wrong) he has no allegiance to his parents culture. His face is his only tie to Asia, but America forces him to identify with this negative racial archetype that they’ve built rather than as an American.
Our stories will likely not end like his, but his grievances towards Asian culture and the White power structure are more than justifiable.
@J.t.Tran I think you have very valid points and it’s great that you are helping out Asian Am men with their self confidence and self-perception. Still, I can’t help but think that you’re doing it at the expense of Women of Color and, well, women in general. The article really made it sound like we’re just property. I don’t find anything objectionable about a program that helps Asian Am men gain confidence, but I think the whole idea of a Pick Up Artist is rather despicable.
@J.t.Tran I think you have very valid points and it’s great that you are helping out Asian Am men with their self confidence and self-perception. Still, I can’t help but think that you’re doing it at the expense of Women of Color and, well, women in general. The article really made it sound like we’re just property. I don’t find anything objectionable about a program that helps Asian Am men gain confidence, but I think the whole idea of a Pick Up Artist is rather despicable.
@ErikaHarada @J.t.Tran Thank you.
As you pointed out, I’m not gonna lie, there are definitely elements of misogyny and objectification in PUA, for both good and bad reasons. But also at the same time, my pen name is “Asian Playboy”, I pretty much have a clearly defined role and that’s to help out Asian men.
I’m pretty up front about that (it’s in the name for heaven’s sake, would you really read Playboy Magazine for articles on supporting women’s lib?).
So I leave the women’s (of color) rights movements left to people both better equipped and better motivated. At the very best, you might label me as a sex-positive feminist. Bottom line is that I can neither help nor save everyone, so I’m just going to concentrate on those that I can.
@J.t.Tran While I’m glad that you’re upfront about your intentions and the fact that there are elements of misogyny and objectification in what you encourage, I still can’t support the ideas behind your program.
I’m not saying you should help every single person out there — nobody is capable of doing that — but that, like I said, you are putting down Women of Color and women in general by objectifying them and treating white women like trophies.
I also kind of doubt you could ever be labeled a feminist if you still promote misogynistic ideas.
@ErikaHarada The white woman think is primarily a matter of practicalities. I may have my own preferences, but that isn’t something that I force on my students.
Quite frankly, once I can get them both the skill, confidence, and experience to approach an attractive white woman, they’ll have the confidence to approach all women regardless of race. And I’ve had students get serious girlfriends to married to women of color.
Not to mention that there are simply more white women to approach, flirt and talk to then other groups of women from a sheer numerical point of view.
And as for the feminist bit. Part of that was obviously tongue in cheek, but the other part, and I’ve seen this from other women and so-called feminists, is that unlike them, I don’t consider women “sluts.” I don’t think in terms like that, one group of women being “easier” or “sluttier” than the other.
To put it abstractedly in the PUA idealized form, all women are attracted to confident men which means there is nothing WRONG with her acting upon those feelings.
In other words, I don’t judge.
@J.t.Tran People who would ever use the word “slut” unironically could never be considered feminists in my opinion, so I guess we can agree about that.
I still don’t really understand the focus on white women; why not just make it about all women if it’s not about what type of woman is the most “valuable”?
Because
1) there are more white women out there than other groups of women
2) a significant enough portion of AMs literally do not feel that white women find them attractive (remember 20% of AMs won’t be getting married, so take a subset of that)
3) visual images are kind of like a fom of immersion therapy (hey, if I can do it, you can do it)
4) the majority of WFs don’t see imagery of WFs finding AMs as sexual partners or vice versa and in this small way fighting against that
@J.t.Tran I’ll give you a free business idea: Japanese imports: blowup dolls – less controversy and a bigger market.
@ErikaHarada @J.t.Tran I think it’s an unfortunate by-product of the racial hierarchy and the strength of symbolism.
There’s no need to dance around it. White people are at the top of the global food chain. Good or bad, many interracial unions are based on this dynamic.
If an individual, on a lower position on the pecking order manages to “bag”, for lack of a better word, another individual, on a higher position, then that individual theoretically improves their station.
For Asians at least, this paradigm will continue to exist until we are able to stop giving inherent value to someone for just being white.
@mwei @J.t.Tran Wow nothing helpful in that post
@Ed @mwei @J.t.Tran I actually read the whole article (not at one sitting) and thought to myself no wonder the stereotype about Asians being emotionless exists. everything is taken so seriously.
The Onion has done this article 3 years ago and it’s much more succinct and witty:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/asianamericans-defying-traditional-stereotypes,1046/
@J.t.Tran J.T.:
I don’t want to bring back the ghosts of PUA past, but I’ll just say it as it is: your words don’t match your actions. You wrote:
“It’s one thing to disagree with the PUA industry, but to try to educate yourself on what it is that we (and most specifically I) do and how we’ve helped literally thousands of Asian men around the world get the girl, whether it’s ranging from dates, a one night stand, serious girlfriends and even marriages by clients.”
Remember, a few years back I did the research, not generally into PUA, but specifically into the ABCs of Attraction. I was there when one of your INSTRUCTORS harassed a young Asian American ex-girlfriend, spread lies about her because she wouldn’t date him, and then unleashed a whole army of Asian American PUAs who attempted to shame her as a form of retribution. And you did NOTHING. You watched it take place while this poor innocent women had her reputation tarnished with lies, harassment, and abuse by your instructors and students.
So all this talk about making these men more confident and better adjustment is hard for me to read. I know what you’ve done. You asked me to do the research, I flew to New York and did the research. And I was horrified by what I saw.
If you need me to remind you about the incident (since some of the people familiar with your work have told me of many other incidents of sexism and harassment), it was the one I referenced here:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2008/12/the-post-pua-era-of-the-asian-american-blogosphere/
The poor woman had nowhere to turn from this public shaming, and so she too turned to the web:
http://www.thefighting44s.com/forum/showthread.php?p=47820#post47820
J.T., you really need to make things right. There are clearly enough desperate (and sexist) men who will continue to support you, but it’s not just about money or reputation. It’s about doing the right thing. The ABCs of Attraction needs to issue a public apology to the woman your people attacked through their vicious innuendos, and you need to do the right thing by making sure it doesn’t happen again.
I’m still in contact with her. In the end, she “won,” because she’s now happily married to a non-PUA. But I don’t think that absolves you for what you and your colleagues did to her.
If you’ll do the right thing, let me know. I can make sure that she sees the apology from both your instructor and the person who facilitated this horrible abuse of power–you. I’ll be upfront in saying that I still think PUA is tacky, dishonest, and vile, but at least you can do the right thing by trying to correct the damage that your institution inflicted on this poor woman.
Make the public apology. I still won’t respect what you do, but at least I will respect that you tried to correct some of your past wrongdoings.
@ErikaHarada @J.t.Tran Erika,
If you’d like to meet a woman who had…um…experiences with the ABCs of Attraction, I can introduce you. I did the research into this organization, and I was disgusted by the complete lack of honesty and respect towards women. No offense to JT–I know he’s just trying to make a living–but you really ought to talk to a female who was on the receiving end. I myself did research into the ABCs of Attraction, and wow. I still find it hard to believe that some people do what they do.
Again, no offense to JT. I think he’ll continue to make money no matter what people say or do–but people should know what really goes on and what his company does to women. And for that matter, people should know what it does to men when they teach men to mistreat women.
@mwei @Ed @J.t.Tran 3 years ago? More like…holy cow…15 years ago??
@J.t.Tran “The question is, do you want that large portion of young Asian men to be taught the rites of courtship, pickup, manhood (or whatever term you want to bandy about) by White owned companies teaching Asian men how to act like White Males and being ashamed of Asian culture (which is the advertising trend amongst white-owned PUA businesses to mock Asian culture), or from the minority owned businesses that have had to work our way up both in the white-centric industry who accept, embrace and even use our Asianness to our advantage?”I think the real question is , does it matter if a White or Asian man teaches Asian men that White masculinity is “better” and more advantageous than their own.
@J.t.Tran “AAs have an almost 40% out-marriage rate by Asian females, but only a 20% out-marriage rate by AMs, leaving 20% who will not be getting married to either Asians or non-Asians.”
I’ve seen that number bandied around with the Pew/2008 Census data in similar discussions elsewhere, and… no. That was sampled from married people — what it says is that 80% of Asian males married in 2008 married to Asians, and 20% are married to non-Asians. Nothing about unmarried.
Point may well still stand (and I believe it might), but that’s not what the numbers are saying. Curious to know where you’re getting that from if it’s elsewhere.
@bohemianeddy @mwei @Ed @J.t.Tran oops, read it wrong. I’m one of those stereotype busting Asians: I suck at math.
@Ed What I find disturbing about them “fuzzy numbers” of the “model minority” is that they gloss over the dire poverty and struggles of many other Asians who aren’t doctors, ambulance chasers, or silicon valley workers.
wait, so the dude who wrote this “paper tigers” thing is a proud graduate of a pickup artist school? LOLZ. that alone just totally invalidated all of his opinions. next.
@mwei The article focuses on the chronic underachievments of overachieving Asians. That’s it. Asians that are poor, homeless, uneducated etc have no direct bearing on his message. If you can explain to me a link between an asian on welfare and the bamboo ceiling then please enlighten me.
If you want to discuss the struggles of those Asians that are struggling financially then you should write about it, rather than blaming someone else for not.
@mwei @J.t.Tran Good point. Maybe the correct reply would have been crickets chirping. See I can joke too. hahaha!!
By the way, Edward, I got incensed below, and I somehow forgot my manners….thanks for the linkage. And I enjoyed reading your opinion on the subject!
Super well written piece. I’m also impressed with your diplomacy.
@Ed @mwei I was more referring to your post than Yang’s article.
as far writing on the plight of poor Asians, they don’t sell books like “Tiger mom” does and nobody wants to read up on it. what I find disingenuous is labeling a whole “ethnicity” with “model minority” as if there aren’t any serious problems to be dealt with.
and by your logic of the article on “chronic underachievements” you’re implying that PUA are in the same category? if you had read the whole article, then you can also see it’s a mishmash of various generalizations and stereotypes about Asians that’s inane at best.
@Ed @mwei It’s hard for me to cheer on one side versus the other when you guys both have the same commenting avatar.
For some reason I think I read a completely different article from everyone who is complaining about Yang’s article….
“First of all, Asian American does not equal banana or Twinkie. To say that the both are one and the same is ridiculous ….”
Um, Yang says “You could say that I am, in the gently derisive parlance of Asian-Americans, a banana or a Twinkie (yellow on the outside, white on the inside). But while I don’t believe our roots necessarily define us, I do believe there are racially inflected assumptions wired into our neural circuitry that we use to sort through the sea of faces we confront. And although I am in most respects devoid of Asian characteristics, I do have an Asian face.”
How is that equating Asian American with banana/Twinkie? He’s saying that he could be could be called that by Asian Americans who use that term to describe a certain subset of Asian Americans…
“It speaks loud that Yang is full self-hatred but it’s confusing to really determine where he stands when his stance alternates randomly from bashing Asians to saying that they aren’t getting enough respect.”
Yang says “I see the appeal of getting with the program. But this is not my choice. Striving to meet others’ expectations may be a necessary cost of assimilation, but I am not going to do it.
Often I think my defiance is just delusional, self-glorifying bullshit that artists have always told themselves to compensate for their poverty and powerlessness. But sometimes I think it’s the only thing that has preserved me intact, and that what has been preserved is not just haughty caprice but in fact the meaning of my life. So this is what I told Mao: In lieu of loving the world twice as hard, I care, in the end, about expressing my obdurate singularity at any cost. I love this hard and unyielding part of myself more than any other reward the world has to offer a newly brightened and ingratiating demeanor, and I will bear any costs associated with it.”
How is that self-hatred?
What I got from the article is that he’s going to be who he is and who he wants to be. And a lot of the people they interviewed are the same way. They may choose paths to be more “Western” or mysogynist or whatever, but they are doing their own thing.
@just_ricky when it comes to the asian american/twinkie/banana part, you are right…i misread that sentence and thought that he was equating the three terms as the same thing. As for the self-hatred part, that is a personal belief and you are entirely within your rights to disagree. But I want you to read the first page and TELL me that this man is not having issues with his Asian American identity. Tell me that he wishes that he was somebody else, rather than Asian (even if he doesn’t say it).
It may be that I’m drawing too much from my own personal experience, but I thought JUST like Wesley once upon a time and after a while, I came to realize that I was filled with so much hatred for myself. Once again, you are entitled to disagree.
I’m not bashing this article by any means. But it is hardly perfect and as writers, I think it is a responsibility that we have to point out anything they may feel to be inaccurate or even personal beliefs about who they are as a person.
But you know what, screw perfect. I embrace this article because it IS full of flaws, about the writing style (11 whopping pages of ranting) and the author’s self indulgence about his own worth. In the same way, my articles can have (and most often) holes in it and rather than believing in some clean, polished BS that is sterile of any personal input, I appreciate what Wesley has done. And that’s my 2 cents.
@bohemianeddy I think that’s part of the problem I personally have against a lot of responses that I have read. Its seems like a lot of them are based on the first page. When I shared this to some of my friends, the response was a.) “Not another tiger article” and b.) “I’m not reading 11 pages”
I actually found your response to be more balanced and constructive. And I think it’s great that you are not complaining about it like other bloggers are.
Almost everyone has had an identity crisis and wish they were someone else. Some more so than others. In part, yeah, he probably have some issues with himself, but it’s also a greater comment on American societal values. It’s not just that he wishes he was someone else, it’s that “mainstream American” views wishes that he/Asian Americans were somebody else. It’s both. For me, and I would like to think that for him as well, it’s that I have an issue with what someone else whether it’s society or my friends or my parents can tell me who I am or should be. And I think that second quote I quoted from his article kind of exemplifies that.
But anyway. To be kinda meta I appreciate that you appreciate what Wesley has done. =P
@ErikaHarada You’re trying to explain to a guy who coaches Asian men to chant about raping their enemies’ women. Good luck.
@BlasianBytch @J.t.Tran I hope Asian guys in this predicament are not so narrow minded that they feel seeking education from white guy-owned companies or this one Asian guy-owned company the only two options? Seeking advice about how to handle women from guys is never going to be the same asking advice about women from women.
@jedifreac True, but I usually don’t encounter blatantly misogynistic people like that on a regular basis, so I find it fascinating. 😛 I definitely don’t expect him to change his opinion on women.
@ErikaHarada I wonder, was there ever some sort of effort out there to clarify what constructive things Asian American women can do to help with the Interracial Dating discrepancy OTHER than with our bodies? At the risk of sounding equivocating, it seems like there really aren’t any guidelines for how Asian American women can be “allies” for this particular issue other than or beyond the entitled expectation that Asian American women should “get with the program” by exclusively dating Asian guys and being receptive to PUA techniques?
Suggestions maybe like this? (and here I tread into dangerous territory, because of the intersectionality between straight male privilege and this issue.)
1) If you think you have a “type” and for whatever reason that type is exclusive to or for an entire group of men by race, you may want to think about how you came to this conclusion and think outside the box. For example, growing up, Asian American women aren’t frequently exposed to images of other Asian American women dating people other than straight white guys. How has that affected how we view the world? At the same time nearly all male love interests depicted in film and media are white. Lots of repeat viewings of Pocahontas and other stuff that send us messages about the ideal love interest for ethnic women? If your attitude is that you won’t date Asian guys “because they remind me of my dad” consider the rational basis of that statement. If you are single, be open minded and be conscious of any subconscious biases?
2) Challenge other people (both Asian and non-Asian’s) perceptions about Asian American men. If you hear someone put down an Asian American guy (eg: “Ew I can’t date him, he’s Asian!”) call them out for it and ask them to justify or think about the basis of their statement. Call out racist jokes in social situations like the old mainstay about small Asian peens. Don’t support Hollywood films that marginalize the depiction of Asian Americans of any gender. 3) Support Asian American guy friends who are upset about not being able to find dates with the understanding that race has an impact on how “date-able” you are perceived by greater society. Beyond validating this concern, help them problem solve how to fight it. As a friend you can help build confidence in subtle ways and help improve social skills. Introduce them to people you think might work well with them. Morale boost.
4) Discourage Asian guys from any sexist attitudes they might hold (not because they are Asian but because of male privilege.) If there is a “nice guy” mentality, explain why it is creepy, sexist and counterproductive. If they have a mentality that is sexist, entitled, or demeaning towards women, challenge them. (Less sexist guys out there the better, and feminist guys are more date-able so it’s kind of a win-win, right?) This is hopefully a small minority of guys.
5) Support anti-racist, anti-sexist, and other anti-ist movements in general, racism and sexism are the primary foundations of the entire interracial dating disparity debate.
Asian American guys aren’t entitled to have Asian American women do this, but certainly a community mindset would help fight this noxious mindset (from some quarters, hopefully limited) that the best and only thing Asian women can do is “ditch whitey and put out.” I guess what I’m saying is, there are APA women out there who can see the racism that Asian American guys date and understand that it’s not fair to be discriminated against in your love life for that reason. Having to counter the unconstructive sexism lobbed at us as a direct side effect to Asian American men trying to cope makes it a lot harder for APA women to help.
4)
Maybe the counter list for Asian American guys might be:
1) If you think you have a “type” and for whatever reason that type is exclusive to or for an entire group of men by race, you may want to think about how you came to this conclusion and think outside the box. If you are single, be open minded and be conscious of any subconscious biases? Study how media impacts how people from different genders and ethnicity see and live in the world. 2) Challenge other people (both Asian and non-Asian’s) perceptions about Asian American women and women in general. Challenge racist and sexist assumptions and jokes. Don’t support Hollywood films that marginalize the depiction of Asian Americans of any gender. 3) You’re a guy, you grew up with male privilege. Reconcile that, challenge it, and work on fighting any sexist attitudes you might hold. If you’re a straight guy, become an ally for women’s and LGBTQ rights. Try to understand where people from these groups are coming from. Understanding them will help out in the romance department, too.4) Support anti-racist, anti-sexist, and other anti-ist movements in general; racism and sexism are the primary foundations of the entire interracial dating disparity debate. I don’t think people necessarily realize how entwined misogyny is with the Western emasculation of Asian American men. Railing against the emasculation of Asian American men idealizes (white) masculinity and puts down women. The idea that being seen as “feminine” is a bad thing is a side effect of sexism and heteronormativity.5)Be angry, recognize discrimination when you see it, but don’t become bitter or entitled. I don’t really know what to say…as an Asian American woman I know what it’s like to be marginalized by being oversexualized (it’s not as fun as some people try and make it sound, it is NOT a perk) but I don’t know what it’s like to be marginalized by being asexualized because of my race. But please don’t fall for the sale that in order to be successful at romance or dating you have to do so at the expense of women.
I have a written an admittedly lengthly response to Wesley Yang. And I concede that just like Amy Chua, what he wrote did affect me very personally. Please read and tell me what you think (I know it’s lengthy, just bear with it).
My entire response is available on my NY Magazine profile page…
http://my.nymag.com/philipjon/profile/
@mwei Ok I’ll take the blame as perhaps I wasn’t articulating my argument correctly. So let me re-pose the question. What does my lack of mentioning the dire poverty and struggles of a segment of the Asian population “in my post”, have to do with my support of of Wesley’s article and the message he is conveying? I am failing to see a link that you obviously clearly see so I’m hoping for some enlightenment.
As for PUA being under achievers, I think you might need to re-read the article. Mr. Tran was fairly upfront about the fact he was a smart guy but was under-achieving due to racist power structure, and I quote in pg 7 of the article “Five years into his career, his entire white cohort had been promoted above him. “I knew I needed to learn about social dynamics, because just working hard wasn’t cutting it.””. Or perhaps I’m misunderstanding JT Tran as well and you are extrapolating a hidden meaning from this statement.
His article is chock full of generalizations and stereotypes because, guess what?there’s a large segment of the Asian population that perpetuates them and there’s a media entity and collective mass consciousness in North America that only portrays and accepts Asians in this manner. And again there’s another large segment of Asians who absolutely refuse to see anything is wrong with being labelled “model minority”. He didn’t create the term, no cares to encourage it. But then again I’m obviously reading things incorrectly.
@jedifreac I love this list, and the other one as well! This statement — “Having to counter the unconstructive sexism lobbed at us as a direct side effect to Asian American men trying to cope makes it a lot harder for APA women to help” really resonated with me. I’m not going to generalize and say that all, or even most Asian-Am men are the problem, like some PUA oriented guys say about we Asian Am women. But those folks really get in the way of constructive dialogue and partnerships between straight Asian-Am men and women because they shut down the conversation before they even begin.
@PhilipJon If you’re interested in submitting your take as a potential guest post for 8A, feel free to use this link: http://www.8asians.com/submit-a-guest-blog-entry-for-8asians-com/
@bigWOWO @J.t.Tran bigWOWO here’s a comment on that article you linked to above by someone named “ex gf of pua” that pretty much sums up why a lot of men, asian or otherwise look to PUA for direction on becoming what is perceived as a cocky Alpha-Male.Here is what she said…
“PUA types are the reasons women do not trust men and their intentions… they may flirt with or hook up with the ‘alpha male’ – but they end up marrying the beta males — the ones that will not hurt them, that respect them and do not manipulate.”
This comment angers me to know end and this is why there are so many men who do not respect women and their intentions. So from this females perspective men are supposed to be happy that women will just have sex with an ‘alpha male’ but will in the end marry a ‘beta male’? Good f@ckin heaven’s!! I could never become a PUA but honestly if this is what a lot of women believe then neither gender is without blame.
While I think it’s important to talk about these issues in a constructive manner, at the end of the day it doesn’t change anything about the discrepancy that seems to be at the heart of the divide between AM and AF. The sad thing is when AF and WM gets together, it only serves to reinforce the racial hierarchy on a societal level regardless of the individual circumstance of such paring. So while it’s ideal to have AF help with this issue by not using their bodies, the simple reality is that in order for the discrepancy to disappear, AF must date WM less or AM must date WF more.. Which kinda leads to the whole idea of Asian male PUA movement, and the encouragement of chasing after white women. @jedifreac @ErikaHarada
@AZJ @jedifreac Did you even read her list?
@Ed How does ONE COMMENT by a woman automatically lead you to believe “a lot” of women are like that?
If I believed what some of the pro-PUA folks were saying about themselves and other men to be representative of most men, I would go shave my head and become a nun.
@ErikaHarada No, please don’t misunderstand me. I don’t generally agree with PUA nor do I think all or even most women feel the same way as the poster does. However, I am angry at the women who did make the post and it offers another side to the argument that if some women are essentially acting on sexual instinct as well then both sides are to blame. The fact that women can, for the most part snap their fingers and get sex, while men may have to work for it ie lie and manipulate, factors very little into the biology.
Yeah, she wants people to challenge their view and belief, but that still doesn’t change the reality of simple math behind the discrepancy. Furthermore, the problem is not really with AF that only date WM since I believe that is in the minority, so having these AF challenge their belief doesn’t really address the larger issue. I think the main cause of discrepancy is that large majority of AF do not hold preference for AM over WM. As the result of this, the discrepancy is created since every other group of women hold preference for their own men, and the fact that America is majority WM. Again I think it’s great for AF to talk about this, but I’m pretty sure in 10 years people will still be talking about the same thing. I believe that in order for AM and AF to stand on equal ground with WM and WF, Asian community as a whole need to reject the current social hierarchy and make up new rules for themselves. Unfortunately this won’t happen if AF continue to follow along with the social norm presented to them by the American society. So if AF aren’t able to reject the social norm, then it’s up to AM to do so. Which comes back to the whole thing about dating WF (and whatever method people used to do so), since that is not accepted by society as the norm, and it goes against the white male supremacy advocated by American society. I will say that the whole IR dating issue is but one part of the larger issue regarding the limitation faced by AA in the country of their birth. However it’s such an emotional and divisive issue, so much so that it drags down the Asian community as a whole in their struggle for equality. @ErikaHarada @jedifreac