When you open Wesley Yang’s “Paper Tigers” in New York Magazine, you will notice a half naked East Asian man starring blankly right back at you as its greeting. Playfully, you may think that the title evoke images of tigers made out of paper until you read the tagline,
What happens to all the Asian-American overachievers when the test-taking ends?
You then scroll down to check how long the article is and you realize that it’s eleven whopping pages with the first page exploding with emotional outbursts from one who is clearly going through an Asian American identity crisis. If you haven’t noticed already, this is creating a stir within the APA community as some are declaring that he is an embarrassment to his race and others say that he speaks the raw, brutal truth.
Honestly, I love it when my Asian Pacific American community gets in a passionate uproar over matters like these. You then have blogging folks mass tweeting, Facebooking, and writing articles all over the Internet, and I relish the vast array of opinions being shared by Asians and non-Asians alike. The last time such a commotion happened was with Tiger Mom Amy Chua when she made a declaration that Asian parents are superior (which it may or may not be the entire truth, according to the author himself.)
I will step out and say that I appreciate the fact that Wesley Yang expressed himself frankly about his thoughts on his identity and the Asian/Asian American community. I agree with his mindset of not thinking like an immigrant. I, too, have been frustrated with a lot of East Asian values that I once found to be restricting and confining. I agree with his reports that Asian Americans are often stuck in the glass ceiling (or the Bamboo ceiling as he calls it here), to which our very own John Lin has specifically covered in an excellent article nearly three years prior.
Overall, this article is extremely problematic: First of all, Asian American does not equal banana or Twinkie. To say that the both are one and the same is ridiculous considering that Yang has a very pessimistic and outdated mindset in what he thinks an “American” is. Also, how do you write about the invisibility of Asian Americans when you don’t even associate with them? It speaks loud that Yang is full self-hatred but it’s confusing to really determine where he stands when his stance alternates randomly from bashing Asians to saying that they aren’t getting enough respect. As the article goes on, he boasts about the appeal of Western masculinity and that white women are not really just normal human beings like everybody else, but destinations to be traveled upon (thanks to N’jaila Rhee for providing that concise insight). Given that this article is published in a mainstream publication, there is a great danger that his voice will be considered as the “definitive” authority on the Asian American mindset.
I do appreciate that Yang spoke frankly about this and it is clear that this is an emotionally driven article, for which I could relate with on many points. But if there’s several things I want to say to Yang back (if he even bothers to read this), it would go like this:
Your face is not alien and it certainly does yourself a disservice by comparing yourself to a reptile. For that matter, stop seeing your racial identity and culture as a bane to your existence because really, no culture or race is perfect. While I think it is unfortunate that you see Western values and masculinity as something superior to your Asian counterparts, you are a product of your upbringing so I see where you are coming from. Even so, it has made you biased against the racial heritage you are from and it is therefore incredibly important that you should not forget who you are. It doesn’t mean you have to take pride in it or even love it fully, but it does mean you need to acknowledge who you are and embrace yourself completely.
Trust me, I’ve been down that road before and can understand the rage in being torn and confused between two different cultures. I noticed you keep using “Asian-American” to speak of yourself and of others; how about taking that dash out and realize that these two can go together? You may balk that these two will always be foreign to each other but like you said at the end of the article, you tell others to “dare to be something different,” and to make something of themselves. I ask you to apply your own words to yourself and connect the bridges that you see to be so far apart.
Despite whatever problems I may see with this article, it is for the best that we have voices like these telling it like it is. They may be right or they may be wrong, but honesty is a crucial force that needs to be welcomed in even if nobody wants to hear it. For the 8Asians readers out there, I strongly recommend you to take the effort to read the whole thing. If it manages to push your buttons or make you feel emotional in any way, then the article is for you. Stick with it and by the end, if you still vehemently disagree, you have your own unique voice to share it with the world. Use it.
h/t: Merlin C
@AZJ @jedifreac @ErikaHarada What I’m also trying to suggest is that perhaps there is a way to “chase after white women” (grr arr zombie shamble) without using PUA techniques that marginalize women (with the ripple effect of marginalizing Asian guys, gay guys, and any guy who dares to challenge the masculine norm.) Constructive dialogue may facilitate finding that way.
@Ed @ErikaHarada Wow, did you really just complain that “women can snap their fingers and just get sex”? WTF.
AZJ. jedifreac. I completely disagree w/AZJ — I think self-analysis and empathy are the only ways to really change the current “trend”.
“I think the main cause of discrepancy is that large majority of AF do not hold preference for AM over WM”
If this was true, there would be more IR marriages between AF and WM recorded, but there is not — the majority of AF still marry AM. Also it doesn’t really make sense because you also stated that most AF do not exclusively date WM. Are you trying to say that most AF want to date both AM and WM? How do you know this?
According to US Census: “Broken down by race, about 40 percent of U.S.-born Asians now marry whites — a figure unchanged since 1980. Their likelihood of marrying foreign-born Asians, meanwhile, multiplied 3 times for men and 5 times for women, to roughly 20 percent.”
As for actual numbers, 2,855,000 AM/AF married couples exist vs 529,000 WM/AF couples.
@AZJ@jedifreac
@jedifreac @ErikaHarada Not sure where you get the impression I “complained”. But I stand by the statement, it was illustrative and women for the most part have a much, much easier time obtaining sex then men do.
Please read this. http://jezebel.com/5517951/sex-lies-and-stereotypes-can-women-really-get-laid-whenever-they-want
@Ed @jedifreac
@Ed @ErikaHarada Oh really, is that why women are 9 out of 10 victims of rape? Women who cannot get sex whenever they want: plain women, “old” women, fat women, trans women, homeless women, women with disabilities, smart women, feminist women, all sorts of women, really. Your premise marginalizes a number of women, even if it were true–which it isn’t. Surely, women get to permit or deny access male to sex. Which is why 1 out of 5 Asian American college women described being raped in a 2000 survey of college students and an additional 9% reported experiencing an attempted rape. And surely ,getting sex whenever you want means you won’t have to worry about being objectified (including for your race, if you’re Asian), denigrated, treated like a whore. Women have it so easy, when it comes to getting sex, amirite? Did the consequences of objectification and unwanted male attention even enter your mind? When it comes to dating, men have to fear being rejected and women have to fear being raped or killed. You know, for thousands of years and even today, one gender has had the ablity to “snap their fingers and get sex, whenever they wanted it”, and that was the gender with the penises. But good for you, standing by your statement.
@ErikaHarada @jedifreac Nice article but again, I stand by my statement and qualify it with the average female still has a much, much, much easier time obtaining sex then men do. Please, don’t throw in comparisons of Brad Pitt vs Joan Rivers in bar to see who can get the most phone numbers.
@ErikaHarada
My point is that if AF holds no preference for AM over WM, then naturally the WM/AF would be higher than AM/WF paring, which is true. As to how i know about this, I remember there was an IR dating study done at Columbia university which concluded that AF as a group is the only group of minority women who holds no preference for their own men over the WM. There was also another study done by the economists who wrote Freakanomic that pointed to the same result. Also think of this way, just because an AF does not exclusively date WM, the reality is she is going to come across more WM then AM, so without a preference for AM above WM, she is likely going to wind up with a WM. Unless of course, she grew up in environment with large population of Asian, which is true in the west coast and most of the major universities in the country. This might partially explains why you still see more AF married to AM. However that is only marriage, the discrepancy for dating I think is even higher (as pointed to by the census data on cohabiting bwtween AF and WM). Which might very well reflects a more lopsided picture that people often claim to observe. I’m curious as to what you think. If you don’t think AF’s attitude is the cause of the discrepancy then what is? Also what would you do to change that? lastly, if the White male supremacy structure tell us that it’s fine for WM to objectify AF, and for AF to be with WM, then how does AF help the cause by accepting WM as equal to AM for dating choice despite the fact that they are not socially equal?
@AZJ@ErikaHarada
I would like to read the study, I’m curious as to what the sample size was.
“If you don’t think AF’s attitude is the cause of the discrepancy then what is?”
Society and racism. As for solutions, I think jedifreac’s list above is a good starting point in raising awareness among both AM and AF.
“lastly, if the White male supremacy structure tell us that it’s fine for WM to objectify AF, and for AF to be with WM, then how does AF help the cause by accepting WM as equal to AM for dating choice despite the fact that they are not socially equal?”
I read and re-read this like 5x but I still don’t understand your question.
@Ed @jedifreac Read jedifreac’s comment and try again. You’re just going “lalala I can’t hear you” at this point.
@jedifreac @ErikaHarada
@ErikaHarada Yes, not to be insensitive but thank you for proving my point. Everything you’ve mentioned describes instances in which men who are unable to readily obtain sexual satisfaction resort to rape to do so. jedifreac, I’m going to ask you take a moment and take a deep breath because your arguments are becoming far to emotional. My premise does not marginalize women in anyway. The fact is that sex is more readily available to the average woman then the average man. Objectification or societal stigmas or name calling do not play into this fact, at all. If all men were complete gentlemen and taught to respect women. This fact would still remain. But that does not mean that women want sex nor does that give men the right to force themselves on women and it’s entirely in a womans right to deny sex to men.
And the whole penis reference? WTF!! If that were true, what’s with all the rape statistics you mentioned? If men can so easily obtain sex with the snap of the fingers, why would guys resort to dragging women into back alleys as you alluded to.
It sounds like you want the right to fuck around without being judged. To allow yourself to be “objectified” on your own terms without some sort of backlash, amirite? Well that’s entirely your decision as a women. Regardless if you are a man or woman, I will not respect anyone who indiscriminately sleeps around. You clearly have other issues that I’m simply not qualified to work through with you.
You can find the study by going on this link and click on the first result. http://www.google.com/search?q=columbia%20university%20raical%20dating%20study&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&source=hp&channel=np
As to my last question, what I’m trying to say is that white America tell us it’s ok for AF to be with WM, so when people see AF/WM couple, they consciously or unconsciously assume that the AF they see accept the social norm that is created by white America for AF. This of course includes objectification of AF, and indirectly the dehumanization of AM. Of course this does not mean the AF in relationship with WM condone such attitude, but her action trumps her opinion in people’s mind. Which is why I asked how can AF who doesn’t prefer AM over WM help the cause if her attitude will likely make her end up with WM and thus reinforce the racist social norm. (I know you don’t agree with the premise of the AF peference, but maybe you will change your mind after reviewing the study and other like it.)@ErikaHarada
@ErikaHarada @Ed @jedifreac holy crap, this has gotten intense. When it comes to race and relationships, I ignore statistics. If the Asian girl has a WM preference, then I do my best showing her that im a charming, likeable guy with a lot of heart. If she doesn’t like, oh well. There are so many women out there, Asian or not, that I dont see why we make it such a big issue. Personally, I also dont see why white women are so revered, they’re just like everybody else. Black, Hispanic, Asian (East, SE, and the fine South) are all awesome tome. Pah.
@jedifreac @Ed @ErikaHarada I just snapped my fingers but nothing happened. Booo.
@Ed @ErikaHarada .Erika, thanks for the support, but I think this one’s a hopeless cause.
@jedifreac @ErikaHarada Can I like this list a billion times? You’ve basically summed up everything that I’ve wanted to say for so long. You’re like magical.
@Ed @jedifreac @ErikaHarada Rape is not about fucking sexual gratification or attraction.
@BlasianBytch @Ed @ErikaHarada BlasianBytch, “I’m going to ask you take a moment and take a deep breath because your arguments** are becoming far to emotional.”
(**your arguments about an issue that has a direct impact on your life and physical well being)
@AZJ Thanks for the link — here is a quote from it.
“We…also found that East Asian women did not discriminate against white men (only against black and Hispanic men).”
Which does support what you say to an extent, except why then do the vast majority of AW still end up marrying AM in the end?
“Which is why I asked how can AF who doesn’t prefer AM over WM help the cause if her attitude will likely make her end up with WM and thus reinforce the racist social norm.”
She can counteract that by being an ally to AMs. Why should anyone force themselves to only go out with someone based on race or the perception of others? What an unfortunate idea.
@ErikaHarada @jedifreac Here is a great study (well collection of studies) illustrating my point http://www.csom.umn.edu/Assets/71503.pdf since I’ve some how come off as sexist. They are theories after all but my premise that the relative ease of access to sex is related to the Social Exchange theory. I will warn you that you need an open and clear mind in order to read it. It treats love, sex, females and males pragmatically and scientifically. Which means women and men are resources and sex is currency. If you’re unable to remove yourself emotionally from any pre-conceived feminist notions of being objectified by the research presented in the study then I suggest pass. If you don’t have any time to read it, here are some highlights…
“The laws of supply and demand can be substantiated in all sorts of marketplaces, and there is no reason that sex should be an exception. With sex, the female resource hypothesis depicts that women constitute the supply and men constitute the demand.”
“…provided by Clark and Hatfield (1989). In this widely cited pair of studies, confederates approached attractive members of the opposite sex on a college campus with one of several offers, the most relevant of which consisted of an invitation to have sexual intercourse that same evening. Three fourths of the male participants assented to that request,
whereas not a single female participant did.”
“Women did not rate sex as a cost in the Sedikides etal. (1994) study either. In other words, sex was a benefit for men but neither a cost nor a benefit to women.This must be kept in mind, lest one exaggerate the dimensions of social exchange. Women certainly desire and enjoy sex too, especially within relationships. The principle of least interest is relevant: Both men and women desire sex, but because sex is more readily available to women and hence not a scarce good, they are less likely than men to perceive it as an important benefit of relationships.”
and jedifreac, there are some great theories on rape as it relates to the social exchange theory that you might be interested.
@Ed @jedifreac Yeaaah I was polite before but “everything you’ve mentioned describes instances in which men who are unable to readily obtain sexual satisfaction resort to rape to do so?” “Your arguments are becoming far to [sic] emotional?” Wow. You really have made it clear that you have no intention of taking womens’ experiences or opinions seriously at all because you totally missed the point. Also your references to rape are extremely insulting and disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself.
@BlasianBytch @jedifreac @ErikaHarada Well I never said anything about attraction and there are many theories to rape and I can assure you several them mention gratification as a cause. Is it the only cause, of course not. Read The encyclopedia of violence: origins, attitudes, consequences.
@jedifreac @BlasianBytch @ErikaHarada Sorry, jedifreac, you made this about rape and objectification, not me. Shall we continue??
@Ed @jedifreac “since I’ve some how come off as sexist”
…Gee, I wonder why?
Oh hey, I have a link for you too. Maybe it will help.
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/the-faqs/faq-roundup/
Also that research really smacks of evo-psych style ways of thinking, which I consider to be pseudoscientific.
@ErikaHarada @AZJ The question is which is more powerful and influential to the masses, activism or symbolism? The same argument went around in another site which mentioned the number of female APA activists that were married to white men. And the one analogy that made sense went something like this (I’m paraphrasing) …
“I can talk all day about how wonderful a Prius is, but I lose credibility if I turn around and jump into a Hummer”
Unfortunately, due to the racial and gender imbalance, AF/WM unions symbolically represent white male sexual dominance and asian male emasculation. That is the world we live in.
When breaking down by AF born in the US I don’t think the number would qualify as vast majority, but rather small majority. In fact in some Asian ethnicity that numbers is over 50% IR marriage with white for 2nd and 3rd generation AA females. I do like to ask why do you think AF as a group is the only one that exhibit the behavior (and only for WM) mentioned in the study? Also I don’t think you can counteract the racist attitude if people don’t believe in what you preach since your action paints a different picture for them. Now I would never say AF should only date AM, I’m only saying that to solve the problem of IR dating discrepancy, this is one of the two options available. Since restricting people’s choice is never right, the only way is for AM to go after WF. So in a way, it’s more of a AM’s burden and while it’s nice for AF to talk about it, at the end of the day it will be the action of AM that changes this racist attitude. @ErikaHarada
“Sorry, jedifreac, you made this about rape and objectification, not me. Shall we continue??” You are the one who made the asinine comment about how women can just “snap their fingers” and get laid. She was pointing out how ridiculous of a comment it was.
@Ed @jedifreac @BlasianBytch
@ErikaHarada @Ed “since I’ve some how come off as sexist”
I loled.
Excuse the sloppy grammar, it’s late and I will leave this discussion as it is. I hope for a better solution one day, until then let’s not judge those who put forth a solution even if it doesn’t seem like a great idea. @ErikaHarada
@Ed @ErikaHarada @AZJ There was a school of thought that said the same thing about any cis male/ cis female pairing representing male sexual dominance and female submission. Then the movement evolved beyond that.
@AZJ “Since restricting people’s choice is never right, the only way is for AM to go after WF.” I think it’s an odd conclusion to come to, though I am not at all against AM/other race couplings. My point from the beginning was that self-awareness of inbalances and racism would be better for AF and AM self-confidence in the end, because I think one of the biggest obstacles for AM is media portrayals that society has bought into, and one of the primary reasons why there are a lot of WM/AF pairs.
@ErikaHarada @jedifreac @BlasianBytch In what way is it ridiculous? If your only rebute is to claim research as “pseudoscientific” in your opinion then please offer, what you consider true scientific fact to back your claim?
I’m listening?
@ErikaHarada @jedifreac Also, I need you to point how reiterating the fact “sex is more readily available to women” is sexist? Send me a link a quote, or study. Oh but not scientific, because research in that area is “evi-psych” and “pseudoscientific”. Lol!
@ErikaHarada @jedifreac @BlasianBytch Ahh yes again, please explain to me the link between “sex is more readily available to women” to the justification of rape and objectificaton of women by men, which you all so magically extrapolated from my comment. Obviously you are the enlightened bunch.
@ErikaHarada @jedifreac No actually you are going “lalala I can’t hear you”. I’m going to ask how anything I stated is related to rape, the encouraging of, the objectificaton of women. How I’m implying that I believe women shouldn’t be able to deny men sex? I’m willing to be enlightened but I have yet to hear anything enlightening.
@moye @jedifreac @ErikaHarada I know for a fact you weren’t surrounded my dudes then.
@ErnieHsiung @Ed @mwei don’t stereotype us Asians all look the same. i expected better from another Asian!
@Ed @J.t.Tran there are no crickets because we Chinese have ate them all. was that too racist?
@ErikaHarada @jedifreac Wow!! Again who brought up the link to rape?? If I should be ashamed then jedifreac should be ashamed to. And what “womens’ experiences and opinions am I supposed to take seriously from? Yours? Don’t make me laugh. If stating truth about the availability of sex to females brings on this firestorm of visceral commentary than I have nothing to learn from you.
If after reading anything I stated you’ve come to the conclusion that I encourage rape and objectification of women then you need to take some reading comprehension classes and stay away from activism.
@Ed well, like how it goes: different people get different interpretations out of an article. i’m not going to debate that.
but in terms of Yang’s article: what is the message he’s conveying? i actually read the whole stupid thing and can’t find one coherent statement he’s trying to tackle. and it seems to me he’s blaming Asians more than the white good old boy racist institutions…
like the Onion article, there’s nothing controversial or even insightful about intentionally underachieving: it’s just dumb and inane, like I wrote before.
i got issues with the model minority myth/stereotype, but you wouldn’t know that since you already jumped to conclusions. so thanks for putting words into my mouth with strawman arguments.
as for re-reading and your VERY ASIAN passive-aggressive tactics: go fight your demons with those of the “Asian population that perpetuates them” instead of targeting some random fool on the internets.
@mwei I love the term strawman arguments (theory), mainly because people don’t know what it means. So to clarify, I also have issues with model minority myth/stereotype and if you read Wesley’s article, so does he. So the fact you bring it up as an argument against his article, is well, amusing. Just because you have issue with the myth/stereotype, doesn’t mean many examples of it don’t exist and are walking all around you. In my opinion, he does a good job of calling out both asians and whites. As for calling me VERY ASIAN, I consider that a compliment so thank you.
@jedifreac WOW! how did this discussion degenerate into the IR disparity and rape victimization? lol
I would say another sign of actually “walking the walk” is have Shiuan Butler at least feign indignation over the Qian Lu murder by a WM with Asian fetish. so far it’s nothing on the obvious telltale signs of yellow fever, but soon as some AM post one word on AF and breast, it’s all hell breaks loose all AM are sexist footbinders. lamo
@Ed sarcasm is beneath your rage. as far strawman argument goes, we’re going by the standard wikipedia definition, right?
ok, let me clarify on the confusion then: I don’t have an issue with Yang’s beef with the stereotypes, I got an issue with his boring and insipid writing style.
does that make sense? that whole article is just trite.
and that’s the final word on this from me. i’d rather go bitch about fascist NYPD pigs.
@Ed @ErikaHarada “Women can snap their fingers and just get sex.” Because both historically and in modern times the majority of women living on this planet have complete control over when and how they will have access to sex. Oh wait.
@mwei Ah Wikipedia definition no, Webster but I’m sure it’s the same. So ultimately you thought Wesley was boring? Hmmmm…
@Ed @ErikaHarada I would just like to publicly express my relief and gratitude that the majority of men I have met in the Asian American community are not like this. I hope that women who are reading this who might use this conversation to further reinforce assumptions or stereotypes about Asian American men involved in APA activism do not take this shining turd example as representative of all Asian American guys.
This comment section has blown up like a gigantic squirrel on E! Most of the heat seems to be generated towards J.T. Tran and his PUA techniques and then spiraling into whether or not Asian women should be conscious about Asian men and not date white men so much? I sit here, typing to myself and observing the actions of this massively fascinating thread section…
@jedifreac @ErikaHarada Good point! I also would like to express my appretiation to the majority of females of I’ve met in the Asian community who are able to think critically and intelligently without twisting everything they hear or read from an asian male, into a message about sexism. Unfortunately, those that are in the minority have the loudest voices.
@jedifreac @J.t.Tran You would have to see women as equals to value the advice they give. The PUA community is pretty much built around that idea that women are inferior and LIKE to be controlled by men.
@Ed @jedifreac How about you learn to read and understand simple concepts? Lol. This comment thread is ridiculous and your hetero male privilege is showing.